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Talk:Charles Tucker III
Photos+Last Words We should get photos of Tucker when he was 4, 8, and 17.-B-101 References on recent additions needed, please. Ottens 16:50, 22 Jan 2005 (CET) I vote to remove Sim's pictures from Trip's article. They are already implemented here. --BlueMars 15:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC) If he was born in 2125 he would have been 14 when he joined Starfleet in 2139! Wesley Crusher aside Starfleet has always been portrayed as an 18+ organization. I'm changing it to 2121. (Alphaboi867 22:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)) Who can tell me exactly what Trip's last words were? Something along the lines of "I'll see you in hell" but I know it was a little more colorful than that. I dont have it recorded :-( and I just don't remember the exact words. Thanks --BMS 03:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC) *Trip's last words on-screen were to Archer: "Archer:Take it easy, everything's going to be all right" Trip: Really? Archer:We'll be right on schedule; I'll even have time to write my speech Trip: Great news; wait'll they..." Is he really dead? Since all of the Enterprise era footage in the series finale is being generated by a TNG era holodeck based on historical records, it is only as accurate as those records. (where as we presume that we see other events as they happen). Does that make his death as shown less certain than events from other episodes. —MJBurrage 18:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC) And unless Starfleet records everyone all of the time (even when they are in private), all of the scenes that are in crew quarters would have to be TNG era speculation by the programmers of the holodeck. —MJBurrage 19:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC) :SPOILER FOR ONE OF THE ENT NOVELS BELOW! :. : :. : :. :Apparently, one of the new Pocket Books novels that is supposed to start the "ENT relaunch" makes use of the fact that all we saw in the finale was "just" a holodeck program - and claims that Trip is still alive. :While I don't think we need to cater to the "NOT.DEAD.-crowd", it's true that all we can really say about Trip is that "in the 24th century, it's common belief that he died in 2161", whether that's true or not. I think we should rephrase that last paragraph in the article accordingly, and perhaps even add a background note about this problem. -- Cid Highwind 19:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC) :Thinking about it again, I don't know if we can even be sure about that "24th century common belief" bit. Was that made clear in the episode? -- Cid Highwind 19:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC) ::I think Troi's line "It's sad. Commander Tucker had no idea he wouldn't make it back (to Earth)" makes that reasonably clear. ;) In any case, as far as canon goes, the fact of the matter is... he's dead, Jim. --From Andoria with Love 02:26, 25 May 2006 (UTC) All we know, as far as canon is concerned, is what the TNG era records say and what is commonly believed. There is no canon reason to believe Trip is alive, but also none of the specifics of what happened on Enterprise in that episode are cannon either. It is only cannon that what we saw was a TNG era "play" based on whatever information is in the Starfleet files two-hundred years later. —MJBurrage 02:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC) ::I'd have to agree with Shran here. Although, like in a biopic, what Trip had for breakfast the day he died, or exact bits of dialogue throughout his day may be speculation, the fact that he died (and the time and cause of death) would be a matter of public record. If it turned out that, say, he really didn't die, but for some reason his death was faked, or whatever, and he turned up alive some period of days (weeks, months, etc.) later, then the official record would reflect that as well... and Troi would've said something different, like "Even though everyone thought he was dead at the time, he finally made it back to Earth", or whatever. All we know is what we see... -- Renegade54 11:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC) :I don't agree. If Trip's death was faked, that fact could remain classified, designate as secret, even in 2370, exactly as "The Good That Men Do" suggests. Events seen in a holodeck program are only events seen in a holodeck program, and Troi's line doesn't prove that events are unmistakably true. I believe it's a mistake to take Trip's death for granted basing such assertion on a holodeck program. -- 19:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC) ::As Lindley (Trek BBS moderator) says: "To all the folks claiming Trip is canonically dead, that isn't actually true. If you're going to get all picky about what you consider "absolutely, positively real", then you should be aware that the *only* thing which TATV canonically established is that in the 24th century a holoprogram exists which depicts Trip dying. Frankly, I find absolutely nothing wrong or contradictory with the notion that said program might be inaccurate---or at least not the whole story". I absolutely agree. -- From Spain, no offense intended. 16:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::And what in canon is there to suggest that the holographic records are inaccurate? They are presented as an accurate account of the events, and without evidence to the contrary, should be accepted as such. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::::It doesn't prove the contrary. You can accept what you could prefer, but a holodeck program should be, at least, call into question. History have issues like that: Was Emperor Hirohito guilty or innocent of war crimes? History books dissent among themselves. Was President Kennedy killed by Lee H. Oswald? According to Warren Commission, this is true. I have my doubts, as like that with this holodeck program -- From Spain with freedom. 17:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::This wasn't a history book. This wasn't some historians interpretation. This was presented as THE EVENT, as it occurred. Anything to the contrary is speculation, nothing more. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::::A holodeck program isn't different to a history book (or a TV documentary if you prefer that). "THE EVENT, as it occurred?" Is a holodeck program a time machine? It isn't different to a history book or a TV documentary. It's just the same. For the rest, I reaffirm my previous post. -- From Sapin, no offense intended. 17:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :: Well, once this fun discussion about history books (or TV documentaries) has finished, I reiterate my support for moderator Lindley on Trek BBS. I find those arguments really solid and convincing. -- From Spain with good mood. 18:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::A holodeck program is different when it is presented the way it was in the episode, as THE EVENTS. As I keep saying, you have NO EVIDENCE that anything occurred differently. At least when historians disagree, they have evidence to bring to the table. You have none beyond idle speculation. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::::You haven't understood me. I didn't said that anything occurred differently. I have only said that holodeck program isn't enough for me (especially considering that episode presents inconsistences with others) and therefore could have occurred what happen on it or all the contrary. Both are equally valid for me. -- From Spain (Why are you so bad-tempered my friend? 18:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Refer to my post above: I agree that a holo-simulation is like a biopic in that details in the simulation may (and probably do) differ from those in "real life". The simulation is programmed with all known information about people and events, and as such would be reasonably accurate, but it isn't a time machine and wouldn't have information about, say, every meal the holo-characters ever ate. I'll also grant you that Trip's death may have been faked, and that information could have been kept secret forever for some unknown reason. But that's pure speculation; we don't know that. He could've been spirited away to another dimension, or any other fantasy that you might come up with. All we know is what we see on screen, and that is that he died. You could just as easily claim Kirk didn't really die, either. And who knows, they might, in some future production, come up with a (canon) way to bring him back (or bring Trip back), in which case, that would become canon. But... as of this point, in canon, they're both dead. End of discussion. ;) -- Renegade54 16:20, 20 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I'm not sure why so many people seem to have such a hard time accepting Trip's death. There doesn't seem to be this continuing angst over Kirk's death, and he's much more of an iconic figure in Trek lore than is Tucker. -- Renegade54 16:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::Kirk died in person, not on a holodeck recreation. You're right on the fact that we couldn't claim that a character is canoncally dead or alive until it is definitely established onscreen. But isn't the same to see a death in "real" life that a holodeck character death. The second case is more doubtful. In other words: for Kirk could bring back, he must to resurrect. For Trip could bring back, it isn't necessary. -- From Spain with good mood. 18:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC). P.S.: In my case, at least, is not for who the character is, it's for this is an objectively doubtful case. --From Spain without asperity. 18:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::I am going to say this one more time. Do you have ANY evidence that he did not die, or that the holodeck program lied about his death? Yes or no? It is really that simple, in terms of what we can accept as canon, and what we cannot. If you want to hold some personal belief, we are not stopping you, but that doesn't mean it ends up here. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::: How many times I must say that I don't believe Trip is alive or Trip is dead? I'm saying all the time that both thoughts are valid for me. What had you missed of my words? I say this case is objectively doubtful, not that the true are he's dead or alive. Had you understood now or I must repeat it again? -- From Spain with good-mood (Calm down, my friend! It's only a science-fiction show!) 18:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::I have read and understood that, but what you do not seem to understand is that your personal belief is not a factor in what is considered canon, and therefore what is going into this article. Period. Not happening. --OuroborosCobra talk :::Ah! just in case: I've never edited the main article, I'm not TT2155 nor anyone similar. Are you mistaking me for the authors of those editions?. In that case, I clarify I'M NOT any of them. --From Spain with good mood. 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I'm tired of repeat that I'm not talking about my personal belief. I HAVE NOT personal belief in this case. I thought I have clarified this point. I'm only talking of objective facts: that episode is a holodeck program and presents some inconsistences with others, like Hoshi's bio on In a Mirror, Darkly and others. Therefore, it is doubtful. This is all I say and I'll repeat it all times as you want. --From Spain with good mood (Calm down, my friend! It's only a science-fiction show!) 19:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::None of which changes anything. We have one simple fact, which is evidence that he died, and no evidence that he didn't. Live with it, and take this conversation elsewhere. If you are not interested in changing the article, than this is not the place for the conversation. Talk pages are only here to discuss changing or improving the article, nothing else. Go to TrekBBS please. This conversation needs to end. --OuroborosCobra talk 17:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::::I'm saying that fact is objectively doubtful, not an evidence and it should be considered like that. If you'd talk about TATV only in "Trip's future" section it would be perfect. Are you thinking I say that it should be referenced as false? I didn't say that, because it could be true. This is the matter I'm discussing here. I guess what yo will say, because you confuse the objectives facts I pointed out with personal belief (if TATV holodeck program are true or not don't know that!). And, for me, this discussions ends here, because I'm really tired of your arrogance and bad manners (your shouts letters or your really offensive "live with it", as I would have any pain for a TV show, for example). I've finished, unless you force me to continue. --From Spain (Calm down, my friend! It's only a science-fiction show!) 19:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC) :::::One of you says "This conversation needs to end" and the other says "this discussion ends here" so, you both agree and this discussion will end here, else the page will be protected due to constant edits. --Jörg 17:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC) ::::::I agree with you. Please protect it before OC appear again with new offensive words. --FS ::::::For the record, I have been following this conversation. This discussion should've ended long ago as it has gotten to a point where it discusses about personal opinion and not the article itself. Also, there is no arrogance or 'shouting' going on. Cobra's caps were to reinforce points and, and the unneeded continuation of this discussion after Renegade said to end it shows the reason for the opinions of the members here. For future note, to everybody, please do not recreate a discussion like this. In canon, it has been shown that Charles Tucker III is dead with no proof otherwise. Thank you. - V. Adm. Enzo Aquarius 17:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC) "Children"? Why is "children" in "quotes"? Elizabeth was a real child. (I'm guessing it's because it at one point included that alien pregnancy he had?) Little Fuzzy Cygnet 14:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC) :She was not his direct offspring. He never, shall we say, "fertilized" T'Pol. Elizabeth was a binary clone. Cells that had nothing to do with reproduction were "cloned" by combining their genetic code into one new set, and then grown in a lab. --OuroborosCobra talk 15:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC) ::I guess that depends on one's definition of "direct offspring" -- Elizabeth came from his cells and had half of his genes. Calling her a "child" instead of a child sits wrong with me. :/ Little Fuzzy Cygnet 16:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC) ::(ETA: I'm not going to push it, though.) Little Fuzzy Cygnet 16:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC) Edit protection I protected this article from anonymous editors since it was vandalized earlier today, apparently by someone who didn't want to come to terms with Trip's death. ;o) Thanks to whoever recreated it... – Michael riber jorgensen 20:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *Just as a note, only administrators have the power to protect pages. The template is merely there to compliment and notify users of the protection and does nothing to protect the page itself ;) - Enzo Aquarius 21:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC) *Ok, fair enough. I still think it should be there, though... :o)– Michael riber jorgensen 11:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC) *There is no need to protect an article after one vandal attack. Generally after three vandal hits we protect it, but there's no need to prevent others from editing immediately just because of one edit. --From Andoria with Love 03:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC) *The page has now been semi-protected because of recent edits removing sections and adding non-canon data. Despite people's opinion of , the events within are valid under MA policy, and will be included here. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 14:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC) **I am guessing (not having read it myself) that these edits are also related to the recent release of "The Good That Men Do", which some people seem to be taking as canon. Obviously, we cannot. --OuroborosCobra talk 14:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC) ***Could the page be unprotected, so edits can be made? --Dr. Zefram Cochrane 02:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC) ****I have changed the protection to recently registered and anon users. - V. Adm. Enzo Aquarius 18:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC) Moved from "talk:Trip"... "Trip" merge Shouldn't this be moved into Charles Tucker III,or redirected there. Two sentences with the same information on the Charles Tucker III, this is a useless section. Redirecting it to the character's main page would be the obvious solution, yes.– Michael riber jorgensen 20:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC) The name of the article is Charles Tucker III. Or did you move it before?--Windu223 20:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC) :It's already been moved. -- Sulfur 22:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)